Proceedings of the UNESCO - University of Tsukuba International Seminar on Traditional Technology for Environmental Conservation and Sustainable Development in the Asian-Pacific Region, held in Tsukuba Science City, Japan, 11-14 December, 1995.
Editors: Kozo Ishizuka, D. Sc. , Shigeru Hisajima, D. Sc. , Darryl R.J. Macer, Ph.D.
Bertram : Could Dr de Foresta please tell us about the ownership rights of the forests that he described in his paper? I assume that since they are establishing long term projects with 50 year rotations of trees, there are long term property rights for individuals?
de Foresta : In the case of Demarcus forest in Sumatra, in fact there is no rotation. Once it is established there is no technical reason for why it should be stopped. It is regenerated tree by tree. Concerning property rights, as you may know, in Asia there are two basic laws in the outer islands. These are quite contradictory. One is the equatarian law which recognize indigenous rights on the land of local communities, and the other is the forest law which is younger, in which the forests have been classified but the whole territory has been designated as state forests. In the outer islands except Java, something like 75-80% of the territory is therefore considered as state property. So in many cases, for example in the Demarcus forest, part of the area of the forest is private land. But the majority is state land, which can be production or protection forests or one of the other four types of forests. So the fact is that the Demarcus agro-forest is a place that was isolated in the recent past, so there was no problem. The perception of people used to be that the land was theirs. However, this kind of perception is evolving now, and people who are on state forest land know they are considered as squatters now. It is becoming more and more a disincentive for systematic management of these forest lands. It is even more complicated, but I should stop here.
Yang : You claimed that this type of complex agro-forestry has lots of benefits, such as economic or environment ones or improvement of soil productivity. Do environmental or soil scientists have any measurements to be sure that such kinds of benefits can be gained from agroforests?
de Foresta : At the beginning of our project in 1990, we were working with a soil scientist. He said this is a natural forest so he did not want to work here, the measurements would be the same. The photographs show that the environment is a forest in its whole sense. It is closed to primary or secondary measurements. But it is very rare to meet people who say it was worse in the past. In the area where you have this Demarcus forest, for example, and you can ask whether people saw a change or not. They all say nothing about biodiversity, it is not what farmers look for, rather it is incidental as a consequence of their management. The improvement that they see, and they will tell you directly, they will say 50 years ago when I was young during the dry season there was no water, and the water was always dirty. They say look now, we always have water which is clear, and they link it directly to the establishment of massive agroforests.
McAllister : Thank you very much. Maybe we must reserve further questions to later in the meeting. We must move on, and I now call on Dr Alexandrov, from Russia, and Prof. Oikawa who will provide a commentary. We now invite questions.
Seki : I would like to ask Dr Alexandrov, how much contribution do oceans make as a reservoir of carbon dioxide compared to terrestrial ecosystems? Quite recently many oceanographers said that the ocean should be the greatest reservoir for carbon dioxide and other atmospheric components responsible for the greenhouse effect. In your paper I cannot see these factors included, in your model?
Alexandrov : In the lower part of my figure there is space for the role of the oceans. I emphasised the role of the biosphere, but of course oceans are also considered as a big sink for carbon dioxide. Most scientists in the beginning of the 1990s did not consider the biosphere is a major sink for carbon dioxide. In the IPCC 1992 estimates, there was an imbalance suggested between the uptake of carbon dioxide in the oceans and atmospheric emissions, and so there was a suggestion that it was the biosphere. In 1994 the IPCC realized there is a sink in the biosphere, including deforestation and there were other effects of climate change on carbon dioxide enrichment. There was limited understanding of where the sink for terrestrial ecosystems was located, although we knew where the sink was for oceans, and the atmospheric levels and emissions from fossil fuel. My paper looked at what the terrestrial sinks were, and how much they absorbed. The improvements in the atmospheric models included dividing the Northern and Southern hemispheres, and also an improvement in resolution from 1 month to 6 minutes! There is a big effect of seasonality on biotic flux within terrestrial biota. Just only seasonality can provide a magnitude of half of the anthropogenic sources, and this is why most scientists come to conclude that reforestation is a major terrestrial sink. The ocean is insufficient to combat global warming, we also need to involve the terrestrial biosphere. Thank you for the question.
Ryan : In my part of India, Tamil Nadu, there is the largest use of leather tanneries in the world. The tanneries are polluting the soil and the water. The High Court has ordered hundreds of tanneries to close down. The government appealed to UNIDO to send a team of experts to find a solution to the pollution and toxic waste releases. We suggested a method to reduce acid rain, and pollution in the water. What I want to ask is whether you and others here think it is useful or sensible? The big tanneries should have a water pool about a metre deep, when the tannery waste is let into it, they would add dried and ground foliage, and mix these with the waste to make a semi-solid which are then compressed into briquettes to be burnt in furnaces. If this is done, the toxic effects of the releases will be reduced. There may be a little acid rain, but this may be less harmful than the expensive waste treatment methods the foreign experts are suggesting. We have not yet tried it, but will try it when we go back.
Alexandrov : I think how to reduce acid rain is a difficult topic. It is normally suggested that the appearance of acid rain is more complicated, it is not only emission of nitrogen oxide but also aerosols are needed to bring it back to earth. It is also a very difficult question because some nitrate deposition from acid rain may increase productivity, and I am not sure which factor is more important. We may not know what is good or bad. We do need some protection especially from the first few drops which are extremely acid, and these can damage some crops such as cucumbers, and the next drops are less acid and toxicity decreases. It is a problem, and it is good if you find some practical solution.
McAllister : Are there any more questions, especially on the particular topic.
Wilk : I think the past two papers point out a problem with land use classification, either being arable field or forest. I think this classification comes to us historically from the European aristocracy of the eighteenth century, where the aristocracy owned and protected forests and established forest as a land use type where people were keep out. Dr de Foresta's paper points out the degree to which forests can be partially or completely anthropogenic, and I am wondering in light of this, why in the Russian situation there is no agroforestry? In your analysis, there appears to be a very clear distinction between forests and arable. Are there intermediate stages which are missed because of our classification?
Alexandrov : I think there has been some type of agroforestry, which is a very wide type of land use. It was a type of land rotation, pastures or fodder sites became overgrown with forests, and then by forestry new pastures are made from new gaps. Most interesting in your comments, is the reference to aristocracy, this distinction in land use definition may be due to changes in the land tenure system in Russia. Before the middle of the nineteenth century there was a heavy feudal land care system, and this declined at the through the middle of the nineteenth century ending at the end. There may be some result of the democratization of the land system in rural areas, otherwise the forest was not a land for everyone's use.
McAllister : I want to thank the presenters for excellent papers, and fascinating contributions this afternoon. We will resume again tomorrow. Let us begin the second day with Prof. Muchtar, from Indonesia. Following this, we will have a commentary by Dr Hisajima.
Seki : As Dr Hisajima already made a comment about the forestry industry, I have a question for Prof. Muchtar about aquaculture. You mention that aquaculture is done on a small scale. Considering that shrimp consumption is already common and increasing more, and in Taiwan they are producing a huge amount of shrimps which has recently been depressed by viral contamination. I wonder why the aquaculture is on a small scale level? Is it because of viruses, or refrigeration problems, or another limiting factor.
Muchtar : Until 1990 the huge mangroves competed with the creation of shrimp ponds, but since 1990 there has been a virus-related plankton causing disease which has closed shrimp ponds, as happened in Taiwan. There remains small scale traditional shrimp ponds using tidal energy to water the ponds. The density of the shrimps ranges from 160,000 per hectare to only 10,000 per hectare. By this method, semi-intensive farming, with only a little additional food, they can continue to survive. However, since 1993, research shows that a flow system can improve the shrimp farming. Recycling of the water can increase productivity to 14 tonnes per hectare per year, from 2 tonnes. Now it is increasing again with a recycling system, and the lower density.
Seki : Is this production for local consumption of exports?
Muchtar : Most is for export, people can gain a high price from these shrimps.
Seki : So you are cultivating only expensive fisheries products. Are there any other products?
Muchtar : Yes, actually there is still small-scale fresh water culture, but from brackish or saline water it is large scale and capital intensive.
Seki : What species are you using?
Muchtar : Mostly people are using grouper, and cycanis especially for Chinese New Year.
Hisajima : Is there a problem of fish feed pollution? In our country when we culture fish in a pond we see excess amounts of fish feed, with excess nutrient levels in the water. Do you see this is Riau province or Indonesia in general?
Muchtar : Between 1992-1993 there was a problem, with about two-fold excess feed being added.
Seki : From the pollution point of view, I agree with the idea of continuing small-scale production. We have many carps in net cultivation in lake Kasumigaura, by Tsuchiura. This causes the second biggest pollution problem in the Lake, following discharges from pig farming. If it is small scale you can stop quickly after a pollution incident.
Muchtar : In cases of excessive food for the fish, almost all of the fish may die due to microbial diseases. There is also growth of fish in the oceans, and we are studying microbial patterns affecting aquaculture.
Yang : Last month I was invited to give a talk on water quality for ponds for intensive agriculture systems in Taiwan. There is a problem, related to diseases and water quality. They are switching production to make more hatcheries, and expand to Indonesia and Malaysia for mass production. Taiwanese investors are putting money into Indonesia, but if you want intensive aquaculture, water quality control is the number one concern.
Ryan : I am also interested in the presentation of Dr Hisajima on Sago Palm. There is a growing shortage of sugar. In India we have a palm tree, from which we make a brown-coloured sugar, however, it is not possible to bleach and crystallize it because of costs. I have heard of sweeteners being made from cactus, and also the protein thaumatin made in the USA. This is a thousand-fold sweeter than sugar, and if it comes into the market millions of sugar cane growers will be thrown out of employment. Also sugar cane requires water to produce sugar, and the yield of sugar is falling because of the shortage of water in several countries. I am therefore on the search for sources from where we can make sugar. Has there been any experiment to convert the sap of the Sago Palm into crystallized edible table sugar? Are there any trials being made?
Hisajima : The structure of the starch in Sago Palm is different to that used. People use the enzyme amylase to make glucose from starch, and use glucose isomerase to interchange fructose and glucose. We can then prepare a mixture of both from converted sugar, sucrose can be degraded by invertase to glucose and fructose, both are equally sweet. To crystallize is costly, so we just use the high fructose syrup, for example in Coca Cola.
de Foresta : I wanted to make a comment on Sago Palm. There are Sago Palm stands in Malaysia and Eastern Indonesia, the Malabukas, Sebaluk, and the Western coast of Sumatra, mainly in plantations. Sago Palm is plant which grows in a swamp forest. If you see huge stands of almost pure Sago Palm it is because they have been managed by traditional communities for centuries or years. Small areas are kept as an insurance against starvation because of a rice cultivation failure, however in areas where Sago starch is the staple food, large palm areas are seen which are not natural. There is the same case with oil palm stands in Guinea in Western Africa. It is very important because this is not recognised. If we are looking for equity in terms of development, saying that these Sago Palm stands are natural means that traditional communities have no rights on them, and if you have the knowledge that the management of these stands developed within the traditional communities, and because of them they exist, traditional rights should be recognised. It is the same case for many products in tropical rain forests, in Brazil this is the case for Brazil nut, you can find small stands of Brazil nut trees, which are not natural. It is the same case for agroforests, in Sumatra for example, the people are now protected from rights problems in Krui where we have made a lot of work, but in the next province in Bengkulu, we have cases were guava trees are being cut. Although after being established by farmers, they do not have rights on them because they are not recognised as being planted. This is the same case for Sago Palm. If we do not recognize these facts, we empower other sectors of society to rob/tap this enormous resource without any benefit to the local communities who create this resource.
McAllister : Thank you very much for your comments, and we must now move on.
Seki : We invite Prof. McAllister, from Canada, to talk about traditional salmon fisheries in Canada.
Hisajima : Prof. Seki will provide a commentary on the most interesting paper. Are there any comments for both researchers.
Bertram : Just as I asked Dr de Foresta about property rights, I would like to raise the question with the salmon in Canada with Dr McAllister. He said that traditionally there were property rights established with the salmon fisheries, and now there was now thought being given to reestablish property rights over salmon fisheries in a new form. In Canadian law is there any recognition of aboriginal property rights, in treaties with peoples or written into the law in any way.
McAllister : Property rights are not written into the law in the traditional sense. Under the Canadian Constitution, aboriginals on the Pacific coast are guarantied food fisheries, so for each tribal entity, from a family to a large group of people, the Dept. of Fisheries and Oceans would work out the number of fish required to satisfy nutritional needs. Up until two years ago, if there was sufficient fish left over after the commercial and recreational fisheries the natives would be allowed to capture fish for their food needs. In a recent High Court decision in 1991, the court ruled that native peoples were entitled to fish for food, cultural and ceremonial purposes. They did not define the interpretation of culture and ceremony, making this a quite powerful decision. The aboriginals are saying that our culture included capturing salmon in rivers for trade and sale. In order to attempt to resolve the conflicts, our government has sanctioned a pilot plan allowing special nacid sale of salmon taken in the river, and extension of the old system. It is a new thing for our government, but not for the aborigines who did this for thousands of years. It is controversy, with some saying it is a disaster and others saying it is a great success, depending on whose criteria and the point in time on the learning curve. In some situations the tribe has been granted the right to fish sockeye salmon on the river system and sell them. They worked very hard, and keep good data, and punished their own offenders. But other tribal groups thought that if those devils can take salmon for sale, why can't I. So other groups moved in and the situation collapsed, because of ancient tribal jealousies and the heritage of ancient war.
Ryan : I have more of a comment for the speakers to clarify. I always take a positive approach and not a negative approach, but recent FAO statistics show an alarming drop in the fish catch. It falls steadily each year, and the FAO is blaming large trawlers which trawl huge quantities of fish. They say we should limit the size and numbers of the trawlers, which is a negative approach. The fact remains that fish eat fish, and the survival rate of fish is 10% and the mortality rate 90%. Several organizations have been advocating the promotion of lagoon fishing. They want to promote the use of lagoons to nurture fish and then to release them into the sea. I keep wondering if it will be possible to set up cages of similar size to this room, made up of nylon nets, where particular species of fish like salmon can be cultured until they grow to sufficient size to be released into the sea. Moreover sea water must be taken into the land by open cut canals and hose pipes. The Ryan Foundation recommends Chanos chanos (Milk fish) and pearl spot for man-made sea water ponds. This may be a positive approach. Here in Japan I have seen people throw used automobile tires into the sea to provide a place for fish to lay eggs and provide a place for small fish to hide when the big fish come to swallow them. I do not know if this causes pollution, but this has been advocated very much by the FAO, by the Japanese Productivity Council, and other organizations. Why has this method not been used in other countries. I am always concerned about increasing the number of fish, because the sea has a lot of fish to sustain. The various ways of promoting fish in the ocean should be useful.
Seki : I wish to respond to Dr Ryan's comment. He mentioned the fishing in Japan. At least the Japanese government is scientifically controlling the fishing in the marine territories of Japan, so that fish stocks of different species will be left at a desirable level. On marine farming, the salmon enhancement in Japan is at least successful to get a better catch year after year, but we must make further detailed scientific investigations on the ecological subject of competitive relationships of salmon with other big fish that share the same prey fish. Actually the size of each fish is getting smaller, so a smaller quantity may be caught. Regarding aquaculture, we have the statistics showing aquaculture in 1993 supplied about 22% of the world fish catch (86 million metric tonnes), according to the recent study of the World Bank. They estimate that aquaculture could meet some 40% of the demand for fish within 15 years if the proper investment in research and technology are made by governments today. So, we should claim that the fisheries management has been good.
McAllister : Prof. Seki has commented from a Western Pacific perspective so I want to comment from an Eastern one. Both Canada and the USA, in addition to Japan, have had very extensive and expensive trials of hatcheries for salmon, spawning channels for salmon, marine rearing of baby salmon, and freshwater rearing of baby salmon, all attempting to increase the number, size and therefore survival of young salmon when released to the sea. In addition the states of Washington, Oregon and Alaska of the USA have attempted to duplicate the success of the Japanese "sea ranching", in which a hatchery releases millions of baby salmon in the sea, and then these are caught when they return. This has been very successful with trump salmon in Japan, but with two of the prime species in Canada and the USA it has been a dismal and very expensive failure. The experience with hatcheries and to extend spawning channels for salmon requires a very high capital and operating cost, and initially you may have great success, and the initial survival rate is very high, so in the USA and Canada there are concerns and alarms about hatcheries. There are two concerns, one is with the investment itself, and also for the impact of large numbers of hatchery stock on the wild salmon. The sea and the estuaries and each compartment of the environment has a finite rearing capacity, so if we release too many hatchery fish you will reduce the size and survival of the wild fish. An additional concern is that of genetics, we could reduce the size of the gene pool and reduce genetic diversity by having too many hatchery fish. There is concern on the agricultural side for cultivars, and the world food production relies on maybe 20 genetic varieties. We have concerns and gene banking has also occurred for salmon too. There are concerns about loss of wild species.
Seki : I am sorry I focused on the success of Japan, but I also want to commend the success of the Hatcheries run by the Canadian government. The natural salmon babies and the hatchery ones have such a great difference, and we need to work to make the survival rate greater for salmon.
Wilk : I want to say that aboriginal people are not just stuck at the extremes of small scale aquaculture, or capture fisheries. There are a number of intermediate fisheries. In Hawaii there are forms of traditional fisheries, and I saw one at the village of Milolii which feeds wild fish in the sea with starch and land food, domesticate them over a six month period and then captures them. These intermediate forms of fisheries have great potential for future development.
Hisajima : Thank you for all the questions. We will have a coffee break.
McAllister : We invite Dr Mazid to give his paper, and Prof. Taniuchi to give a commentary. Unfortunately we do not have time for verbal questions, so if you would like to submit written questions for inclusion in the proceedings please use the forms, and give them to the person you ask, and give them with an answer to Dr Macer.